I have a few questions about the karma system, one that involved Jorster's Imperio v2 and one that regards kinectking's earlier post about manti teo or whatever.

first one:
so jorster created a terrible level but included me as a co-creator. when the level got -5 karma, i received it too. so if i were to create a really trashy level and added isa as a co-creator. as i think everyone knows, isa doesn't get minus karma. if he does, it will be negated by plus karma (last time it went without a plus to negate it was over 8 months ago). but yeah the point it, he has a lot, but everyone always plusses him. so would you guys end up minus-ing the level because it is crappy, or would you even out the level to 0 karma because isa's name is there and you wouldn't want him to lose karma unfairly? all of that is assuming i wouldn't get banned or isa hadn't logged on in the time that everyone else decides to rate it. minus the level because it's bad and i should feel bad, or even it out or even potentially plus it because isa's name is there?

second scenario:
so i saw kinectking's post. 0 karma, no rates yet. i minused it. now it's at -1. left for a bit, came back, now it's at -4. was the -4 because people thought that it was a bad post or because i had already minused it and put the wheel in motion? next, jazz posts about the fact that the post has -4 karma. at the next time i come back, the post has +2 and 6 votes on it. that means that 2 people plussed it, and 2 people retracted their minuses then plussed it. did people feel bad for him or something, even though all rates are anonymous? then i make a post about it, and it goes down 1. are all the posts about it going to continue to mess up the karma? so did all those posts about it influence the overall rating of the post or was it all a coincidence?

^will kinectking minus me because i openly said that i minused him?

all of this is just curiosity.

post 3000, if this counts as a post lol
EDIT: dang this doesn't count as a post
DOUBLE EDIT: apparently it does now o.o

I personally don't give Isa special treatment. But I don't -1 him because:

1. I rarely -1 anybody
2. He rarely does anything deserving of a -1

That said, in this theoretical situation, I will not discriminate. Isa's karma shall go down for bearing association with you and your absurdly poor level.


I will say that when I looked at Jazz's post, it was at -3 I believe (-4, +1), and I +1'd it, not because I thought that Jazz was right, but because I thought that -3 was a bit excessive. I think that the reason that it got up to +2 was because Teo responded positively to the post, prompting other people to remove their negative rates, and maybe one of them to switch over to a +1.

In the chatbox, I had said that someone was trolling, because someone was. After I saw that it was up to +2, I retracted my vote, because the only reason why I had +1'd it was because I didn't think that it deserved -3 karma. At the same time, I didn't think it was that funny and furthermore, didn't think it deserved positive karma, either. As such, I retracted my karma vote. So to clarify, this was not because you posted about it, it was because I didn't want to support the post because I didn't think it was good enough to get positive karma.

The trolling person I was talking about comes in because then someone, upon seeing me removing my vote, switched their positive vote to a negative vote, swinging it back to -1. I then added my karma back (because I'm way too nice to all of you guys), and that person switched their vote again, bringing it back up to +2. And then I removed my vote, and they switched back to a -1 again. I think I'll just not vote here, since -1 isn't that bad. The only reason I voted in the first place was because I thought -3 was too harsh.

Yeah, it seems that too large a portion of votes are based on votes by other people. Maybe it would be a good idea to hide the karma rating of a post?

I'd just like to point out that soccerboy did indeed help me make Imperio V2. Which is why I added you as a co-creator.

Just clearing things up.

i said it as a joke lol i didn't think you'd actually post it

About the manti teo If someone knew what's going on with this, it definitely would wake up some humor at several people. Soccerboy was right while minusing it, but would also be right if he'd plus it. It's his own decision if it feels like a bad post or a good post for him. However, it's obvious that a HATPC crap with nothing at all should be minused and an Imperio walkthrough should be plused.

In any possible way - no one should minus or plus people's posts just because of the specific person. (such as the virtual Isa's situation) It's everything about that.

Next case: what about just giving karma because of some competely different situations than a post being bad or good? What about this:


I just said that I had that "Teo_pl" username through all the last years (dunno even from where that "_pl" is :p) and used the 69 number because I accidentally had 69 karma and it could also remind... well let me wait for being 18. =p I went sleep and got on next morning and I still had 69, however the post was once plused and once minused (it has 0) just because I used that magical number in the post. Not that I'm "angry" or "sad" or something, but I'm wondering if situations like this should also take place here.

The only reason we're stuck with this flawed points system is because of how long it took to implement, and the lack of people admitting that it failed to improve posts in any way, instead simply encouraging pandering and flattery between people. I won't say anything more for now.

I think people care too much about karma.

But for that first situation, I agree that is not how the system is supposed to work. You shouldn't get negative karma because another person added your name. I don't like karma rating levels anyway and I think many people agree with me on this. You can already directly rate levels, so there is no point to karma rating it as well. It has been brought up before, but Livio never removed it. I think he had his reasons, but I don't remember them.

Now with that said, I need to make a level named "minus karma plox" and add Quirvy as co-author.

I agree with jell. In fact, I think a good number of us generally agree that level's shouldn't be karma-ratable. As I recall, the technical reason for why we included it was because levels contain descriptions, and if they wrote a really good description then they might deserve karma for it. But in reality people use it like "I like this level. +1" and "this is a spam level. -1"

And, I get that it is somewhat useful to -1 spam levels, but otherwise there's no need to reward good levels with karma since you're method of rewarding good levels is supposed to be good rates and reviews.

The point that Flash argues is theoretically true, but there's really only one person who I've ever seen that looked like they were brown-nosing for karma. Basically, it comes down to this: If you're willing to suppress your true feelings because you want some worthless internet points, go for it. I think most people value their opinions more than 1 karma from someone else, because ultimately, what does karma do? All it does is it lets you know what other members think of you. If your post gets -4 karma, it means that in general you made a post that people think was pretty bad. If you get +4 karma, they thought that it was pretty good, or at the very least, a funny/clever post. If someone is trying to flatter someone else in an attempt to acquire karma from that person, then the karma that they would get really wouldn't mean much other than that the rater appreciates his/her behavior. So then, what's the problem there? Perhaps that their posts are getting annoying? If that's the case, then remember that you can rate posts, too.

Basically, I don't think that's a problem at all, because most people are smart enough to know that the actual value of karma is completely worthless. I don't know about you guys, but the only reason why I ever want to get karma is because of what it means to get that karma; it means that someone likes my post enough to promote it. Trying to find cheap ways to get karma is completely missing the point of what it means to get karma. You want to get karma because you genuinely made a good post, not because you appealed to someone in particular, hoping that they would like your post.

Furthermore, I think that the total karma count is basically worthless. Nobody really pays any attention to how much karma you have. It's something that we should still keep track of, obviously, but it's not like anyone looks at karma totals and makes judgement based on them.


But I still do think that the quality of posts have improved since the system's implementation. What it really does is makes people act nicer to each other (you can call someone out for something, but you have to be polite when doing so), and it also helps make our jobs easier because it punishes members who break forum rules (flaming, spamming, ect).

I personally have not experienced many situations where someone was being intentionally mean, generally when I make an insult it's just a statement that seems like, but is not, an insulting sentence. An example of this is when Jorster said, "Stupidity 1, Me, 0", and I said, "Couldn't stupidity be considered part of your personality?" or something of the same. Then Sniper said, "Burn". I did not intend that post to be hurtful to Jorster, (if it was) I was actually asking a question that I deemed askable. I was genuinely wondering if a character trait like that would be seen as a part of someone's personality or as a separate rival... Something.

I've wanted to clear that up for a while now, I really hate it when someone's feelings get hurt (although I'm not necessarily saying that Jorster took that statement as an insulting one) and it turns out to be an accident.

But I do agree with Quirvy there, the Karma System (I'm assuming the site was not quite as well mannered before it, here) made people really act more nice to each other, something I find helpful. It would really be demotivating if you made a reasonable HatPC level, just for some rude member to insult you on every possible mistake in the level, like an irresponsibly placed spike.

That may make me sound hypocritical, but I deem insulting users on mistakes unreasonable and unjustified. I try to point out all the glitches, errors, or odd mistakes when I am eating someone's level, especially when it comes to HatPC. I do not, however, intend to seem mean if I only point out the creator or creators' mistakes. I try not to act cynical or pessimistic most, if not all, of the time. I try to also point out the parts I like about the level, although I believe feedback is more helpful if you're not just flattering the creator, but giving them information they can use to edit and improve their levels. I honestly dislike it when someone just says, this level is absolutely brilliant and there is not a single thing you should change, you are a god. Well, there are exceptions, but for the most part, I don't like it when someone gives a Karma-yearning complement (Yearning, not earning) with no real complement hidden inside. Unless you make an epic walkthrough of some really good level, I always try to point out the Pros and the Cons.

It's often hard for me to give decent, useful (even slightly) feedback without upsetting whomever designed the level. I hate it when a situation like that pops up, and I generally just say to myself, "Oh, I'll rate it later", and by the time the designated time arrives at my doorstep, I have forgotten.

I didn't take that as an insult, your question made me think a bit, and I liked that.

Ah. I was really hoping you would not see it as me trying to be mean to you, (As I wasn't) but as a serious question imposed by another member. I thank your mind for not being unlike mine.

A few things...

While I have the most visible positive karma rates (no doubt that Jellsprout in reality leads by ~100 at the very least), I still get a few shares of negative votes. Last one was eight months ago - consider checking others. Quirvy, Livio and Shos, maybe Jellsprout, will have some negative posts alright, but the other mods/frequent quality posters (this is not to say only mods make quality posts, on the contrary) like Yaya, Harumbai, Sefro, CSD and so on will have even less negative karma rates than me since I make dumb posts every now and then. Especially Sefro, who prior to his gender change (not sure how it is right now) had had three negatives rates IN TOTAL.

Moreover I'd hate if I got karma points because I already have a lot, so people are more wary of me, but I also don't think that we as a collective and members as individuals work that way. The reason I don't get a lot of negative votes is not because I make a lot of good/fun posts, it's because I don't make a whole lot of bad ones. My jokes aren't too forced, I'm a nice guy with some interests in stuff and things and I am decently witty. That gives you karma apparently, so if that's what you aim for, feel free to emulate me.

Finally, the karma I have hasn't been rising very quickly recently (or at least, compared to earlier). I skyrocketed from 150 to 300 or so, but now I'm at a pretty stable level. This is related to the fact that I do not make a whole lot of posts any more, or at least, compared to what I used to make.

Absolutely finally, I agree with most of what Quirvy wrote.

I feel like that's partly because most of the core member base and the community as a whole has obviously gotten older in 3.8ish years since the first karma rate. We still seem to attract an odd amount of preteens, but the people who stick around the site even it out. I was gonna use Imperio V2 as an example, but it has been deleted for the better, I guess.

Anyways, the point I was gonna make was, Jorster back then:

Jorster now: Relatively different person.

Same thing with Guyguy, Silver, and pretty much every member to some degree. I think the karma system's role was a mere bonus to the fact that people mature.

Inspired by Isa's post, I have gone one a quest to find my latest post with negative karma (not counting negative karma plox). While I had many posts with negative votes, nearly all of them were canceled out again to neutral, with a few even having positive karma. In the end, I found this gem:
http://www.interguild.org/members/forums/jump.php?to=1307810522
This saddens me. I actually liked that post.

Sorry for not responding to everything, will do so later, but with Jell, do you think that if he had not changed his karma to -2billion, then people would not have uprated him more?

This might be semi off-topic, but I think that there shouldn't be karma on levels anymore. After all, with the 0-10 level rating system, there's really no point in having karma for levels. Karma is mainly for stupid, bad, or mean posts, and just because someone made a bad level doesn't mean they should get negative karma.

Yehhh... I can relate to what you're saying there, krotomo. Karma rating a level is mainly just because you like or dislike it, but you can just say so in your rating instead of divvying out worthless Internet points. (Is that the right word, "divvying"?) Alas, no doubt Livio has his reasons for keeping it. What's the difference between a rating and a Karma rating? Obviously a lot to some people. I dont actually have my personal confirmation on this, but I noticed that probably about half of the "active" community tends to prefer a rating in the Karma system over a nice video rating or level rating. I would tend to think it's just a thing, if you know what I mean, (Which you don't, I assume) but actually I think since level and video ratings aren't piled up into a big heap of "points" like the Karma rates are, people don't pay as much attention to them. Just a food for thought: what would happen if Livio completely omitted the Karma system for some time? Would posts get outrageous or would our community know the "boundaries" (even if they are no longer "visible") to posting?

As well, I find that when a post is rated already, people tend to raise or lower, depending on the rate already there, the rate, regardless (or less cautious, often) of what the post's contents contain. Don't criticize me on how many commas I use, think of that sentence like a big, mixed up sandwich, because that's what it is, metaphorically speaking. So, to put that into simpler terms, a user's ability to rate can be hugely biased by someone else's vote. If some post has a +1, members (including me, at times) feel less, ah, oppressed about dealing out their own rating. They most likely sense that if someone else is done it, it's all right. A very childish thought at first glance, but it does pop up all the time, and not just in the Interguild. Like, if you take a popular brand name like, "Apple", for example. An apple is a fruit. An Apple is a company that makes computers and tablets. What? At first, naming your computer company after a fruit sounds ridiculous and, well, stupid. Then the company's merchandise gets more popular an the name becomes more well-known, and BAM! Naming your computer company after a juicy red fruit makes perfect sense, why would it not?

See what I mean?  

Also, sometimes we downvote posts that we feel already have too much karma. I feel if the vote numbers were hidden there would be a lot more upvoting than downvoting because many people will like the post, but if they see the vote, they think it deserves +1 karma instead of +4 or however many it actually has if karma vote viewing is enabled.

^^^
I haven't seen it happen as often recently, but as you well may know, I am a strong opponent to that type of voting. Just because you wouldn't give that post all that karma doesn't mean that other people shouldn't be allowed to. Unless you legitimately don't like a post, you shouldn't be downvoting it, because even if you're just bringing positive karma down, the message you're sending when you -1 a post is "I don't like your post"

I find it to be different when people +1 posts with negative karma, because -1s are basically supposed to be punitive, and by raising the karma of negative posts, you're saying "I didn't have a problem with this post, and I don't think it deserves to be shamed"


I was going to look way back and see the last time that I was -1'd, but apparently it was last night when I made this post:


???

Past that, my streak of not getting -1'd goes back to the interguild mafia game (June 2nd), where someone -1'd a big post I made. I'm still kinda mad about that. If you're going to -1 a lengthy post covering many topics, you should at least have the decency to explain why. My guess is that they didn't like me requesting that others refrain from using mafia acronyms that were completely foreign to me, because my request was in a kind of demanding tone, but I'll never know for sure.

I consider myself to use the -1 very rarely, so I think it's more interesting to see what posts I have -1'd. Last 5 posts I've -1'd:
1. Shos for deleting a post of Isa's as part of his one post entry
[thee posts that I -1'd to keep from getting positive karma, because it was the "you have one post to get karma" round](those don't really count)
2. "Guess the password"
3. This: (as well as a post that no longer exists)
4. Isa () for making a one word post in the politics topic
5. Bmwsu for being a bad judge

1. That awkward moment when you are part of this topic
2. No, I would never -1 you because you minused me. Just wanted to say that. I take no offence to you voicing your opinion.
3. Sorry if this topic is a little old and I'm beating a dead horse

You shouldn't flog dead horses, both literally and figuratively.